Why don't Australians want to live with their elderly parents?

Transcript

Chantelle Ellem 00:00

Welcome to Season One of Feros talks Unsaid, Untold. I’m Chantelle Ellem, also known as Fat Mum Slim. In collaboration with aged care and disability service provider, Feros care.

We’re here to tell the stories no one else tells, give space to the people who haven’t previously been heard. Sometimes it’s uncomfortable. And sometimes it’s even controversial, but it’s always passionate, interesting and ready to unravel a fresh conversation, shifting the way we see diversity and inclusion in Australia.

As a nation, Australia has the highest proportion of older people living in institutional care. According to the Medical Journal of Australia, some say, that intergenerational living is the answer, just like in Europe, Asia and the Middle East. But only 20% of Australians live in a multi-generational household. And many of those are adults, who haven’t yet moved out of home. So, why don’t Aussies want to share home with their elderly parents? Is it privacy, cultural reasons or do we simply not care enough? On today’s Podcast, we have some very important perspectives from those who just may have some of the answers. We’re speaking with Abby, Cheryl and Mel [Phonetics 00:01:34] who all work at Feros care. And they’ll give us some more insights on intergenerational living. Let’s get started. Abby, you work in community service operations for Feros care. Can you tell us a little bit about your role?

Abby 01:47

Thanks, Chantelle. So, my role is a strategic partnerships manager. I did actually start my career as a registered nurse, working in hospitals. But I’ve been able to transition, to aged-care. And I’m using some of the sort of business development and partnership skills, I’ve learned over various roles to support aged-care now.

Chantelle Ellem 02:08

And through your role. You work with a lot of community services for older Australians. Do you see this trend reflected through what you see either Australians living independently in their own homes or in residential facilities? But not with their wider families?

Abby 02:20

Yes, we do. I had a quick look at clients at this point. And I can confidently say, that at least 50% of our clients actually live alone, which is a concern. Obviously, every client is different, their scenarios are different, and the level of support that they have will vary. And when I talk about supported things like family or carers or friends around them, or even the volunteer services that they might access. The other thing that I’m concerned about is, you know, this statistic that was pushed out a few years ago, which says, that about 40% of residential clients don’t actually receive visitors in a year, which kind of blew my mind.

Chantelle Ellem 03:00

That’s heartbreaking.

Abby 03:01

When I heard that. Yes. So, we certainly see it in our day to day work.

Chantelle Ellem 03:07

And what do you think might be behind Australians not wanting to live with their older parents? Would it be cost of living or maybe not willing to be carers?

Abby 03:15

I feel like it might just be a cultural construct. That’s the norm in Australia. So, in Australia, there’s very much a cultural norm that once you become an adult, you leave home, you move out of home, you know, you start your family and this is, you know, Australian dream of owning your own home. Certainly, we see that reflected in the number of elderly Australians, over 65, who own their own home. So, it’s about 75% according to the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, so there’s quite a lot of older people who have their own home. And I think, that’s reflective of that. In terms of people not wanting to be carers, I suspect that there’s actually an assumption or fear that people need to be qualified to be a carer. So, we’ve got this model in Australia, where we’ve almost medicalized social care, you know, we’ve got these sort of checks and balances and governance to become a carer and certainly to become a clinician, which is correct, and it’s right, we want to provide the right level of care. But I just want to put it out, there to people that to be a carer, you know, everybody has the capacity to be a carer and you don’t need to have a specific qualification to be able to support your family. That’s what you choose to do.

Chantelle Ellem 04:45

And I think knowing that it can look a little bit different too, so you don’t have to be the complete care like with having people come in and help with the bathing and whatever it is needed. Like you can, it can look a little bit different. I think, we just don’t really see it, you know, one way, we need to think a little bit broader.

Abby 05:01

Yes, 100%. I think, people need to sort of reflect on their scenario and go, What am I capable of doing? What would I like to do? How can I seek support to be able to support my loved one in their journey. There’s amazing organizations out there like Carers Australia, and their associated state care associations that actually build capacity for carers. Obviously, there’s a need for carers as well to provide themselves with self care. And it’s just trying to find that balance. And those sorts of initiatives alleviate that need for the care industry to have to deliver everything.

Chantelle Ellem 05:42

If we were to talk about your cultural background where intergenerational living is really common, isn’t it? And it’s also encouraged, what’s your personal perspective on this?

Abby 05:51

So, I come from the Philippines. I’m a migrant, I came here when I was eight. So, my experience of the culture has been shaped by that intergenerational living is very common in the Philippines. If you think about the Philippines, there’s actually not a social care or health system that’s funded by the government. So, there’s always pros and cons of these things, certainly when you end up in hospital, it’s all fee for service. So, that’s a little bit scary. So, then you start thinking about things like equity and access to health care, and sort of social support. But for the most part, that sort of culture is buffered, because there’s an expectation that we look after family. And when I say family, it’s not actually your immediate nuclear family. It’s, you know, your uncles and aunts, and cousins and your grandparents and even to the point where it’s like, your grandparents, and their wider family. So, what I’m trying to say, is that our concept of family is quite wide. You know, we call people Tita, which means Auntie or Tito Uncle, you can’t go wrong, if you call everybody uncle or aunt. There’s just this perception that we’re one big community, one big family, and we’re all here to look after each other. So, I mean, to that point.

Chantelle Ellem 07:19

Would that be on the other end of spectrum too, that you’d pitch in with other people with family, kids as well, like. So, not just looking after the elderly? Would everyone pitch in and look after the kids as well?

Abby 07:27

Yes. 100%. You know, it’s quite common for uncles and aunts to be looking after their nieces and nephews. And even you know, we even think God parents are part of family. And so, you know, we grow up with our God parent’s kids and call them cousins, even though we might not be related. So, there’s a very sort of communal focus, I’ve had the chance to sort of test this out on some of my friends who are also from different ethnic backgrounds. So, I grew up in Canterbury Bankstown. It’s very diverse community in Sydney. And they, even though we’re all from different countries, and the majority of my friends are either migrants or children of migrants like myself, that sentiment is very much shared, that there’s this communal, our concept of family, and that there’s an accountability around how we look after family elders, and to your point, Chantelle, children.

Chantelle Ellem 08:26

Yes, it’s putting me as an Aussie to shame. I feel like we need to pitch in and do a little bit more.

Abby 08:32

I don’t think there’s any room for shame. I think, we need to recognize that, this is a different culture. And I think, we need to be creative about how we solve the current issues. I think, it’s neither good or bad. It just is what it is. There’s pros and cons for both.

Chantelle Ellem 08:48

Yes, definitely. We know there are a lot of lonely seniors out there.

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Chantelle Ellem 08:48

Yes, definitely.

We know there are a lot of lonely seniors out there. In fact, we’ve done an entire Podcast episode on “How one in four Australians are lonely,” and about the terrible health implications loneliness can have. Do you think part of this loneliness solution could be more intergenerational living?

Abby 09:03

I think, it could be part of it. But I’m not particularly wedded to one type of solution. Again, I think, we need to be creative. So, absolutely start getting people thinking about what, if it’s feasible to live with their parents. There are other arrangements out there like home sharing arrangements. We’re starting to see this in Australia, where organizations are starting to be funded for linking someone with the capacity to look after someone with someone who needs to be looked after. So, that’s interesting. The other day, we were talking in our team about the need to bring back incentives for students who want to study in the clinical space. So, an incentive could be them, living on site, at a residential facility. And I’ve worked with nurses, who have lived on site for free in hospitals. You know, registered nursing students who are now mature for registered nurses, and they have really good memories of connecting with people, who have the same experience learning and living at the same time.

Another option could be using technology to create communities. One example that we have at Feros is a virtual social center. So, we actually have this beautiful virtual community where we facilitate activities, people come on board and connect through shared interests, but they end up building relationships. Obviously, virtually, but I’m not saying, you know, it doesn’t discount the fact that you can still connect via technology. And I was thinking about this, because I thought, we have these physical communities, we’re all part of a suburb, or neighborhood and what not. But we actually don’t use technology to connect with each other. So, wouldn’t it be great to say, a facilitated virtual community, where you can meet people that can support each other in your physical community, you know, like a student down the road, linking up with a neighbor down the road, and just facilitating a relationship and a visit, it can be as informal as that. And certainly in the partnership space, I think, there’s room within corporate social responsibility policies, to find like-minded organizations, who want to support aged-care providers or elderly people in the home, and have people regularly volunteering from that organization to support people in the community. Lots of options.

Chantelle Ellem 11:45

Yes, I love the sound of that. We have something similar to the previous thing about the connecting communities we have, you know, a neighborhood. We have this, I’m probably one of the youngest families in our neighborhood. But we have this Whatsapp group, where the whole neighborhood is on it. And if someone needs something, you pitch in, it’s really nice, this community vibe like, can you come and help me fix this and an elderly old carpenter will come and fix that, or so that you need tech, I’ll go. So, it’s actually nice, that you just are there for each other.

Abby 12:12

Yes, that’s right. There’s all sorts of communities out there. And it’s not necessarily based on financial incentives. I’ve been watching this one in my area around people, who are willing to make extra food and give it away to people in the same area, who might not have a meal or didn’t have time or whatever the scenario is, no judgment. They just go, I’ve made an extra lasagna, who wants that? And ping me for details. And there are other groups, I’m watching with, where people are just giving things away for free. Obviously, there’s this big focus on sustainability, recycling. And if you don’t have to spend your money. You know, and there are other people who would benefit. Well, why wouldn’t you just give it away?

Chantelle Ellem 13:01

Yes, I like this bigger picture thinking and, not so insular and thinking about ourselves. It’s thinking of the community.

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Chantelle Ellem 13:01

Yes, I like this bigger picture thinking and, not so insular and thinking about ourselves. It’s thinking of the community.

Start here:

Australia has an ageing population with the amount of people between 65 to 84, expected to more than double between now and 2050. What do you think will have to happen to the aged-care industry, if Aussies continued to not want to live with the older parents?

Abby 13:23

We’re already struggling now as a sector. So, there’s a massive workforce issue. It’s not just confined to aged care, disability, primary care, or health care. It’s the generic sort of care sector. So, that is a concern. I think, the pressure points will get worse, if we can’t find creative solutions. And, again, we need to be thinking outside of the box and thinking well, it’s not just about, you know, pulling people in, with the skill sets through migration, it’s actually about what’s possible with the technology and the skills and capability we have in society to alleviate this issue. I think, we’ll see burnout, ongoing shorter, tenures in aged care, which would be a shame, there’s a massive disconnect, Chantelle with. Well, not disconnect.

But there’s a lot of awareness around how people can enter aged care, but also progress their career. So, I think, that’s really important because if you don’t see an example, then you’re not able to understand what’s possible. So, when people think about aged-care can be a bit short sighted, you know, you can be a care worker, you can be an allied health, you can be an RN, but there’s lots of other ways and pathways that you can actually create, to continue to provide support in aged-care.

I was reading last year, there was a theta report that said, that we need about a 30 to 35,000 direct care workers every year. So, that’s a huge undertaking. And there’s this massive shortfall. And again, I do say, aged-care here. However, there are overlaps, as you know, with NDIS, and primary care and health, we’re all competing for the same talent. And I think, there is the opportunity for sort of cross sector collaboration somehow, because I don’t think, we can solve it all by ourselves.

Chantelle Ellem 15:29

Yes, hopefully, that we can make some grants here. But I think, that awareness of, there’s not just one role to work within this sector, that it can look very different. And we could have progression within the careers as well. So, hopefully, some more awareness happens around that. And we get more people involved, because 30,000 people every year, is a huge number.

Abby 15:49

Yes, it is. And I’m not sure, I don’t have the solution for this. But how can the corporate space support that as well? You know, do we incentivize people? How do we incentivize people to sort of support loved ones or play a part or participate in the care space? And, you know, for some people that level of variety might be enough to keep them engaged as well. I know, I like a level of variety. So, having options is always good. I don’t think, there’s a one size fits all answer to all this.

Chantelle Ellem 16:22

I agree. I think, we need to be creative. Thank you so much for sharing and joining us today and sharing your thoughts on this topic. It was so nice to meet you.

Abby 16:37

That’s okay. Oh, it’s my pleasure.

Chantelle Ellem 16:38

Thank you so much.

We’re here with Cheryl, who is very well qualified to speak on this topic and offer some insight. Cheryl, can you tell us a bit about yourself and what you do for Feros care?

Cheryl 16:59

Sure, I’m a Facility Manager for a sevenly presidential aged-care home. And generally, it’s for people that have quite complex needs and can’t be looked after at the home. I have a facility that is constantly occupied, we have a 12 month waiting list. And that’s generally for people that are waiting to come into the home from hospital, community, or not coping at home. And generally, a much older population from 80s, and onwards.

Chantelle Ellem 17:35

So, do you think it’s accurate to say, that Australia has one of the highest proportions of older people in institutional care because your residential villages are always busy?

Cheryl 17:44

Absolutely. And not only this facility that I’ve now been a part of, for the last six months, previously to that, I had 178 aged-care home, and I think, it was exactly the same, your beds are never empty, and it seems to be increasing. So, absolutely. It’s definitely in demand.

Chantelle Ellem 18:03

Yes, with that 12 month waiting list, it doesn’t seem like it’s going to change at all. What do you personally think is behind Australians not wanting to live with their older parents?

Cheryl 18:10

Children in Australia aren’t raise, there’s no expectation that they will be looking after their parents as they age. A great example, I was in Bali in January, and I was in the cab and the driver was telling me, he was 24 years of age, and he was the youngest of three sons. And although he was only 24, it was the expectation that he only had his parents living with him because he was the youngest. And that’s from birth. But there is always that expectation. As, children generally were growing up, or we grow up to believe that our parents will be in a nursing home. It’s almost like a normal, challenge, so to speak. It’s kind of a challenge, so to speak.

Chantelle Ellem 19:00

Yes. You just don’t think any differently really, do you like some families will care for their elderly. But most of the time, it’s just assumed that they’ll go into care at some point.

Cheryl 19:09

And we have children that come and visit the home or some of our residents go and visit the child care center, it’s time to keep that connection. But we see a lot of children visiting the home from these residents, families, and it is generally the norm. It’s very different. I think, culturally, it’s from when we were quite young. The expectation is that we won’t be looking after our parents.

Chantelle Ellem 19:41

Yes, So, you say a lot of…

Cheryl 19:43

Most of the care sorry, the care is quite difficult and quite challenging. Especially if people are in wheelchairs. There’s a lot to consider with hoist and lifting and you know, it’s a 24 hour job. So, it’s a lot of difficulty even trying to manage that. And I guess, the other is, we have a lot of younger people now or older adults living at home longer. And then, there’s practically, probably no room to be looking after their parents as well. And given the housing crisis as well as generally, you know, that issue as well from you know, I’m seeing and hearing.

Chantelle Ellem 20:20

Yes, there’s a lot of pressure, isn’t there. We had our Nana, who had dementia come and live with us for a little while. And it was meant to be long term, but it wasn’t sustainable. And we couldn’t provide the care that she needed. So, I’m sure that people want to and we’ll try to, but it sometimes it just doesn’t work out to be that way in aged-care is, where they need to be.

Cheryl 20:41

I’m saying, while, looking for respite, and you know, they’ve lost 18 kilos in three months. Because it’s a full time job. You know, they’re up at two o’clock in the morning, four o’clock in the morning, especially if they’re a person with a dementing illness and they’re caught. They’ve got no sense of time. And it’s incredibly challenging. And generally, you’ll see them burn out before the actual, you know, the person with dementia.

Chantelle Ellem 21:06

Yes. And because that, you know, throw kids and everything else into the mix as well. And other life pressure, that’s quite a challenge.

Cheryl 21:14

Absolutely. It’s big job for anybody. I guess, that’s why we are staffed 24 hours a day, if the care doesn’t stop, you know, for an afternoon, it continues all the way.

Chantelle Ellem 21:28

Yes, they don’t clock off. So, you see a lot of family supporting their loved ones in care homes, even when they aren’t living with them. What ways do you think it’s best to support loved ones in residential care?

Cheryl 21:40

Generally, we have a lot, obviously, they visit the home and know we encourage them to sort of participate in some of the activities that we do. But just one of the other examples, I’d like to use is, we have married couples within the facility. So, even with the married couples, we try to create it, so that it’s normal in our home like setting, and then, make sure they maintain their relationship. So, individualize it by having what we call date night, making sure that they spend time together, doing things outside the home together, where possible.

We encourage visits at all times of the day, participating in some of our theme days, I guess, trying to make it more like a home, even though it’s not their home and having as much interaction as possible. We also have a lot of volunteers period that are very much the same age as some of our residents. One of our allied health assistants is 80 years of age, and she takes all of our exercise groups. And generally, she’s quite inspiring because we have people in their late 70s, early 80s participating in this exercise group, which is run by one of the same age. So, I guess, normalizing, creating a home like environment, and you know, encouraging pet children. Just normally what they would we’re trying and mimic, what’s at home in the best possible way where we can.

Chantelle Ellem 23:13

That sounds great, making it a welcoming environment for family to want to come and visit as well, which is nice.

Cheryl 23:20

Absolutely. Other people from the community, you know that we have entertainers, singers, and you know, different people from different churches. And we try to keep it within the home so that, you know, they still get access to everything outside the home.

Chantelle Ellem 23:37

Australia has an aging population with the amount of people between 65 to 84, expected to more than double between now and 2050. What do you think will have to happen to the aged-care industry, if O-Z has continued to not want to live with their older parents?

Cheryl 23:52

I don’t like to think about it. We already have, you know, an increasing demand, staff shortage, the population growth is so far outweighing you know, the skill set in the work force alone. And I guess the way we do aging, encouraging people to live at home longer and putting all the support in place. I guess the way we view aging in a way that, you know, older people have a wealth of knowledge. They have amazing skills, that I think as a society, we need to recognize and encourage. I guess one of the inspirations that I have is seeing volunteers in their 80s living a really fulfilled life and contributing in some way but also supporting some of our residents who are physically not in the zone. You know, positioners what they are. I think we’re always going to have nursing homes through the complexities, especially with dementia care and, you know, the physical needs of older people. But I think, if we sort of viewed the way as authority as the way we viewed it, but also, you know, I guess keep people at home longer and prevention or you know, health prevention and what have you.

Chantelle Ellem 25:11

Yes, something has to change and that we need more facilities or we need to change the way we view caring for older people.

Cheryl 25:19

Absolutely.

Chantelle Ellem 25:20

It doesn’t seem sustainable.

Cheryl 25:23

Now, even now, it feels that way, the demand and it doesn’t slow down, it increases and then you’re trying to stop, but at the same time, it just doesn’t seem to align itself.

Chantelle Ellem 25:35

Yes, it’s going to be an ongoing issue. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story and the insights from in the residential care village as well.

Cheryl 25:43

Thank you for having me.

Chantelle Ellem 25:44

Thank you.

We’re now here with Mel who has a really thought provoking take on this topic and one that people don’t often speak about. Welcome, Mel. Can you tell us a little bit about you and what you do for Feros care?

Mel 26:21

Sure. So, I live in the beautiful Gulf Coast with my husband, and my adorable three year old Labradoodle full confession, he is a very spoiled baby. And I work as a virtual community development coordinator at Feros care. So, I do a variety of work in the virtual space, such as online projects, and as well as some national projects that help working with our local coordinators on the ground across our service areas, to build inclusive connected communities and build the capacity of people with disabilities to live the life they want to live.

Chantelle Ellem 26:58

We actually spoke to some of the people that do those programs, and it was some of my favorite chats, because they were such heartwarming projects to be part of such a great role to be, what you’re doing.

Mel 27:08

It’s a really awesome space to be in. And just to see that from a national perspective is really cool.

Chantelle Ellem 27:12

Yes. You had quite a challenging upbringing. Do you feel comfortable sharing a little bit more about that?

Mel 27:18

Yes. So, I come from a bit of, you could say, probably broken home, my parents separated when I was five. And so, I sort of jumped between houses through shared custody, court orders. I grew up primarily with my mum, and my half sister who was born to my mom’s side a few years later, after the divorce. And so I would visit my dad every other weekend and half holidays with my brother, who’s a few years older than me. And so there’s a bit of jump between two worlds sort of.

And so both my brother and my half sister have autism and intellectual disability, and they require a lot of high need support. So, very low communication. They use our echolalia most of the time, which means they will just repeat maybe the last word of a sentence. Last couple of words over and over. And yes, so that was the way that they communicated and very challenging, just with doing daily basic living tasks and things like that.

And so, my mom also was with, for most of my life, an untreated mental illness. And later discovered only a couple of years ago an intellectual disability. So, I grew up with a lot of people or with most of my family with a disability. And at the time, I was sort of the normal one. And I was a little bit challenging. So, my mom, she, you know, she really struggled with doing daily tasks like cooking or cleaning. And she spent most of her time living in her room, honestly. And so…

Chantelle Ellem 29:13

To cope, I guess.

Mel 29:14

Yes. And so it felt like the housing department was always on the back during house inspections. There came a point where the housing department actually had to replace the carpet in our home with linoleum because my sister would often go into fridge to just spread items like food and like flour and she also struggles with incontinence. So, she kind of gets a mix over the floors and walls. It was just really horrible, to be honest. And we just had a really challenging time with pests. That was a huge thing and mold and so I have vivid memory. I have really strong memories of shaking off cockroaches from my bed, like nightly, and it was really challenging.

[Unintelligible 00:29:59] Yes. And, you know, it was it was hard because my mom wasn’t capable of looking after me as a child. And, you know, there’s a complex mix of reasons why. And, you know, she didn’t get as much support, and she didn’t get that identification really early. And so, it just really made it hard for us to get the support, we need to.

Chantelle Ellem 30:37

And especially for you, that feels like a lot of pressure for you to be easy, and to be the good kid when everything is so challenging for her as well.

Mel 30:45

Yes. And so I kind of grew up being the mother figure, to my mom, and my brother and my sister. And so, I had to put my mom’s support and emotional needs before my own. And it was really hard because my mom, because of her un-treated mental illness, just believed in a reality, where she sees her identity as taking care of her kids with disability, her special kids. And so, I didn’t get a part of that now. And so I was really kind of odd to her. And so, like anything that would be said, outside of this narrative, and like, hey, Ma’am, what about if we try and do this or try and get this help? It would just come back with, you know, things, like insults against me and my dad. And just screaming matches, and just anything to protect her identity?

And it was really challenging, because, you know, like, there’d be times where it would be, it gets so bad that if I was not a good enough girl, agreeing with her identity, she would even get like, another older lady friend of family come in, and like, come this close to my face. Screaming on me and spit on my face until I basically cried. And so I learned to cry. Just to stop. Because that was like my sign of being punished enough. So, I grew up in that environment. And, you know, so there was a lot of neglect and emotional abuse experienced. And this caused me to struggle with a lot of my self-esteem. And I was bullied a lot at school due to my parents and like, things that happen with constant stress. So, I’ve still got, I’m not going to share, I’ve still got scars, so lots of skin picking and, you know, that will never go away. And it was just a really hard time. And so…

Chantelle Ellem 32:54

Being a teenager is hard enough, and then going through that is just so much harder.

Mel 33:00

You know, and it just really felt like, my mom could never be proud of me. You know, as I was just sharing earlier, I was brought at school. And usually, I think, I was trying to get positive affirmation from my teachers. So, I remember one day, and you know, and I got like three or four academic awards once, kids were like, going, get off the stage, you know. And I went home and like my brothers and sisters participation was all over the walls. And I went to mom. I’m like, Hey, mom, like, Look what I got. And she’s just like, and I’m like, Mom, Aren’t you proud of me? And then she like just over the top. Scarily went, Oh, of course I am. And just like, chase me to a corner with just this sarcastic, and it was really scary. And it was really hard. And I knew that there was a lot of emotional abuse growing up. I didn’t realize until quite recently that it was trauma. And how bad it was. And so that kind of hit me hard as well.

You know, because I grew up in this environment, feeling trapped and depressed. You know, and with these court orders, I’m a naturally good girl. So, it just break them. So, I was always waiting until like, one day and I’m 18, I’m old enough to be there, you know, I could go and, you know, my dad was amazing. He was my hero. And we try to, you know, get the court orders changed, but we just hit the brick walls every time. And so I do, like, I do want to live with my dad so much. And I was, like I said, I was counting down days till 18. But when I was 15, things just got like, overwhelmingly too much. My mum had just used her narrative to turn the family, a few friends in Family against me.

And as a bad daughter, like, including my granddad, and it just pushed me past my limit. And I ended up running away from home to live with my dad. And that decision left me really have mixed feelings of guilt and fear. Because like, I wanted to take care of my sister. And I wanted to give her some of that structure and support that I knew was important for early intervention. But I had to just, I couldn’t cope. And I had to take care of me. And so it was the first time, I could actually start figuring out who I was. And actually had enough time to stop and process what life meant and figure out, who I was, because I had no idea at that point.

Chantelle Ellem 35:47

You tried to keep small, they tried to give you small and stop you from celebrating you and who you were. So, challenging.

Mel 35:55

Yes. And so it was, you know, like I said, it is complex, but it just wasn’t an environment that was really conducive to me.

Chantelle Ellem 36:10

Succeeding and being your best self. What’s your relationship now, like with your mum and your dad?

Mel 36:17

So, now I live interstate. So, they’re based sort of New South Wales, Victoria. And so the distance makes it hard to keep in contact. But I do keep in regular contact with my dad over the phone and see him annually. And while after I run away from home with my mom, I did a few years later on, connects back up with her, you know, sort of, I don’t know how to say, it to just sort of like, go look, mom I forgive you. And I did that.

But even when I was back in a house, it was just like, I couldn’t be there for more than half an hour. Because the emotional manipulation that she would put on me to go into her narrative was just really hard. And even, when I would try and call her, she doesn’t want to answer the phone. And so it will take like, two weeks to get in contact, and then it’ll be like, two hours of her just saying, that same story, over and over again. And it’s was, like, I’m trying to say, one thing about me, and it’d be like, met with verbal shrugs, and go back to her. You know, it was really interesting. So, like, I remember, because she used to say, like, you know, we live in this world of disability and people out there don’t understand. And I’m like, Mom, there’s no two worlds. We all live in the same world, you know? And she said, You know, I felt like, the only thing that would make her proud was like, if I worked in disability, as a teacher or something like that.

And so it was really funny. Because I think, I did the opposite. I worked in IT, Computers, the way opposite. And I mean, I’m kind of, jumping into next part. But even when I did sort of shifts, I figured out that like, I need to do something with my experience that is to help the world. And that was really driving me and try to talk to my mom about that. It’s still was met with verbal shrug. So, it’s like, there’s nothing [Unintelligible 00:38:37] And it’s really challenging, because even when I did see my sister, the last visit a few years ago now, like, that was the thing that was most heartbreaking, because even though they had moved out that really gross home, the new house was starting to get in second array. I saw my sister click on a mattress on the floor, eating chicken nuggets with a big bowl of sour cream and was just really obese and just not getting taken care of. And it just broke my heart. But I just had to sort of go, I couldn’t be her mum, you know, I couldn’t be there. And I still can’t…

Chantelle Ellem39:20

Go to create boundaries for your own.

Mel 39:25

And it’s so hard. But I have to accept that I’m not the right person to give that support.

Chantelle Ellem 39:32

How did that upbringing influence the role you do now, Feros care, as well as your journey with your own ADHD diagnosis?

Mel 39:40

Yes. So, it’s been really interesting because, like I said, before, I was working in computers for quite a while and I’m still very much a geek. And especially in a virtual role, get to use those skills quite regularly still. But I knew that I wanted to be more directly helping people. Because of that experience I had. I knew that I need to be somewhere, where I could be more directly involved in making a change. Be more directly involved in creating an environment where people could be more supportive. They wouldn’t end up like my mom and my sister. And so, you know, and, I did think, that so long, but I think, I was just exhausted, the pressure, everyday life. And we’ve worked, I just couldn’t do anything outside of that.

And so when COVID hit, it was kind of a silver lining, because I ended up making space, left my job, and decided to start studying. And so I just wanted to study something in Human Services, I was kind of just looking around to see what was available. And there were some reduced COVID pricing courses on grad sets. And so I ended up doing our grad set of disability and inclusion remotely. And it was so validating, to have like frameworks and theories to explain my life, what you’d be thinking already it was just really validating. But even though, you know, I was naturally smart. It was the point where I was also just not coping with studying and just sitting still, and just focusing, and my brain knew, what it wanted to do.

Chantelle Ellem

It just couldn’t do it.

Mel

I just couldn’t do it. And I think, that the exhaustion of my life was just explained so much by my ADHD and so I knew for a while I’m like, well, friends, my family, there’s probably something not quite like, there’s probably something there for me, but I never had time to look into it. And my husband, who also has ADHD had been kind of putt me for a while going. Probably you tell it looked good too.

Chantelle Ellem 42:23

So, he’d been diagnosed already.

Mel 42:28

So, he was diagnosed when he was young, which is actually much more common for males. Because he fit the stereotype more than the female who was [Crosstalk 00:42:38] So, you know, he’d seen some similar traits of me. And so I decided to go and look into the ADHD diagnosis. I had the time. And Veilleux. [Phonetics 00:42:52] Yep, I’ve got ADHD. And that was really helpful for me too, because it just really gave me more of a sense of purpose of this role change and of this career change that I have a really important part to play in it. Not just from my history, but who I am now. You know, even my friends, who I connected with in high school, a few of them and you were diverted too now. Always were. So, it’s interesting when you look at the questionnaires, and you’re like, Well, were you good at socializing? Like what? Yes. Caught up a lot of people at school and then like, Golden Era divergence. Not all the same.

Chantelle Ellem 43:38

Not all the same.

Mel 43:40

I shouldn’t say, all of them, but a fair few. And you know, like, so I think, I was able to explain a lot of things, until that point.

Chantelle Ellem 43:49

Kind of helps make sense of things, doesn’t it? It’s like, oh, this is who I am. And it’s okay.

Mel 43:54

Yes. And so just with that, like, as I was saying, you know, we’ve my past experience, and knowing that now, for me, it really is my rocket fuel that drives my passion, of making social change for people with disability to have the same rights and access to communities. Everyone else.

Chantelle Ellem 44:15

I love that. Especially being a mom of a daughter with ADHD. And having talked to so many people with disabilities in this Podcast. It’s so nice to have a champion for that. We definitely need that.

Mel 44:26

Yes, I think it’s really important.

Chantelle Ellem 44:27

Yes. Throughout this episode, we’ve considered some reasons that a person may not want to live with a parent, but we haven’t really discussed that it might do more harm than good. Can you tell us how going back to live with parents can affect health and well being, positive and negative?

Mel 44:42

Yes, so, I think, I just can only talk from my situations. And I know that my situation doesn’t mirror other people’s situations. So, it’s important to remember that, but for me, talking about my mom, you know, there was trauma there. And I had to separate myself because of that trauma. And, you know, I was doing a bit of research into this topic, actually, as you do. And there was actually a recent journal article back from 2021, talking about caregiving for parents who’d harmed you so emotionally as well. And they talk about like, for adult children who suffered with trauma or childhood neglect, taking on the responsibilities may involve daily intimate context, contact that can be particularly stressful, harmful and traumatizing. Like, that’s huge, you know.

Chantelle Ellem 45:35

So, triggering.

Mel 45:36

And, you know, for these adults, providing that long term care and intimate needs may result in, you know, depressive post traumatic symptoms, as well as, like the use of harmful coping strategies, substance abuse, because like these un-resolved issues are definitely happening. And if both parties don’t work towards, it’s never going to be resolved. And so I totally identify with this. If I was to go back to live with my mom, it would be super triggering. And I would not be able to cope. I’ve been processing this experience for almost for over half my life, like I’m 31 now. I run away from home, what else if taken off, you know, and I’ve had, you know, multiple, like counseling, therapy, psychology that works. And, like, I’m never going to just fully get over. You know, like, I have to learn to live with it. And, you know, put myself in situations where I can have that freedom to reduce my emotional triggers too and to re-purpose those childhood adverse experiences into making a difference for other people. You know, I need that freedom. If I was to go back, I don’t know if I’d survive.

Chantelle Ellem 47:00

No. I think, it’s powerful to accept that has happened. And you can’t change that. That was really hard to accept. But I also think, it’s so powerful to have that boundary and go, that’s not actually the best thing for me to go back into that environment, because it just isn’t going to work. You’ve already tried, you know, stepping back in small doses, and it just doesn’t work.

Mel 47:21

Yes. And like the article continues that you know, that one of the cultural assumptions and norms of countries like the US and Australia today is, that family members, you know, typically children and adult daughters should fulfill the needs of their aging parents. You know, how the researcher suggests that abusive parents have broken the basic human contract between them and their children in their care. And thus, adult children are not obligated on caregiving responsibilities as culturally expected. For these adults, having the feeling of choice that is prioritizing their own safety and well being can be empowering and helps set those clear boundaries with external demands, such as cultural expectations and economic pressures. And the reason I wanted to mention that is, because we just really need to think twice before making those like cliché assumptions, you know, when, especially dealing with trauma and neglect. No person should feel like, they need to conform to this. And we as a society need to look at those bigger impacts, before making notices, you know.

Chantelle Ellem 48:25

We’re not a one size fits all. Like, that’s really validating for you. I’m sure it feels like a permission slip to go. You don’t have to do this like, it’s not the right thing.

Mel 48:34

Yes. And I think, just to go back to the main theme of the Podcast, where it talks about many other countries, you know, a few other countries having that intergenerational living as part of standard norm. I think we, as a society, sort of thrive to have that independence and self-sufficiency. And so we’re in a different culture where we’re less likely to take care of each other in our community, which causes a lot of mental health issues and loneliness, and people like my mom not getting that support when she’s younger. And, you know, not getting recognized, which then has the overflow effects in families and things like that now, and we’re still healing as a nation. You know, I think, that’s one of the biggest things like, why we do have that gap compared to other places, because we’re not as caring and supportive of each other as a tribe, as a community. And so this is what happens.

Chantelle Ellem 49:40

Very different. What conversations and thoughts have you had to take into account, when thinking about your aging parents? So, going back to that, it looks different, what have you had to consider?

Mel 49:49

My brother lives in full time care and be living with my dad, he got really good support and so had that routine and structure and so my Dad manages that. And that’s really good. And that will be just really good to continue that in the future. So, pretty good with that. My half sister, on the other hand still lives with my mom. And like, it’s really challenging for me, because it was one of the biggest challenges, when I had to leave home. You know, I wanted to be there to take care of her. So, she could have that better quality of life. But I can’t and so…

Chantelle Ellem 50:33

Looking after your dad would look different to looking after your mom, because, like the mom situation is not going to happen. But you think, you could care for your dad, if it came down to it?

Mel 50:42

Yes, I was going to leave that to the end. But my dad, like I said, like, he’s pretty much a hero. And when I moved with him, although, you know, I just discovered that no one’s perfect, which was a bit of a shock to me. But at that stage, we’re basically like housemates anyway. You know, like, I’ll do shopping, blah, blah, blah. So, it’s totally different story. And you know, how parents say, you know, they wish their kids would be old enough to, like when the kids are old enough, don’t worry about the home. Well, my dad’s approach was to move out on me instead.

Chantelle Ellem 51:20

All right.

Mel 51:21

So, instead of waiting for me to move out, he got to like, we’ve moved out on me, he bet me to the chase. But it was fine, because I was actually making plans to move up to the Gold Coast anyways, I just say, that it’s just really interesting. Because at my wedding too at my speech, she said, something like, You got to make sure you look after these too, my husband and I, because one day, they’re going to be choosing my retirement home. So, I think, that’s a good evidence to say, that you sort of want to move back in with me.

Chantelle Ellem

He’s already said.

Mel

I think, he’s made his choice. So, it’s really not up to me like.

Chantelle Ellem 51:55

And do you have that on videotape? Maybe you’ll be like, Oh, you never wanted to live here, remember?

Mel 51:59

I do and I looked at it. I pick it, looked at it a month or so ago? Because it was anniversary recently, only like, oh, there we go.

Chantelle Ellem 52:05

Well just sent him a copy.

Mel 52:06

So, it’d be totally different. But even with him like he’s living with new partner now and our new family, so yeah, I wouldn’t have any issues. But just up to him. Yeah.

Chantelle Ellem 52:22

It was like a more fluid direction. Like whatever happens. Doesn’t [Unintelligible 00:52:25] So challenging.

Mel 52:29

Yes. And that’s the thing, like with the aging parents, the future is always unknown. It’s always different circumstances. You know, I think, my mom is now getting support, and will continue to get that support by people who are able to do that, have that specialized knowledge, and not personally connected. And I don’t know what that looks like in the future. And I know that I won’t be the person to be able to provide that intimate support. So, I think, like, it may be just going into a really well supported aged-care facility for my mom. Where she gets that care. And she gets that sense of community that she probably hasn’t had for years of her life. You know, that’s like, amazing, positive. You know, my sister, I don’t know what’s going to happen there. But if she did get into full time care, like my brother has, it would be amazing, because she would have that support structure that…

Chantelle Ellem 53:39

People that know.

Mel 53:40

People who know. And so I actually be quite relieved.

Chantelle Ellem 53:45

Yes, to be just knowing that it’s possible as well, like, it’s there, it’s possible.

Mel 53:49

You know, that’s why we have these support systems. Because, you know, as I mentioned earlier, we’re still healing as a community, we still healing as a society and we need everyone’s support to take care of each other, no matter how, if that, like no matter how that looks like, it could be taxpayer pay dollars like caring for people with disability and projects and the work that we’re doing now because we haven’t had that community care from the get go.

Chantelle Ellem 54:20

Thank you so much for coming in and chatting with us today and being so open and sharing your story. I really appreciate it, so nice to meet you.

Thank you for joining us for today’s episode of Unsaid, Untold. I know, it got me thinking about caring for my own parents and what that will look like as they age. If you’re looking to support your own elderly parents to stay in their own home, or live with you, in your home, you can find resources and more information at Feroscare.com.au forward slash Podcast. Chat to you soon.

Disclaimer: The content and views discussed in Feros Talks podcast episode are those of the individuals involved. They are not necessarily condoned by, or, are the views of Feros Care or its employees.